THN.com Blog: All-time best players by nation
Nicklas Lidstrom and Alex Ovechkin are arguably the best players to ever make it to the NHL out of Sweden and Russia. (Photo by Dave Reginek/NHLI via Getty Images)
Ryan Kennedy
2008-08-07 11:55:32
In just a few days, some of the best Under-18s in the world will clash at the annual Ivan Hlinka Memorial tournament, hosted by the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
For major junior fans, many of the Canadian names are already somewhat familiar – Brayden Schenn, Taylor Hall and Jared Cowen among them – and those of you who followed my Year of the Ram series will recognize Nick Oliver of Team USA.
But part of the fun of these tournaments is hearing names for the first time and sorting out the hype that goes along with them.
Finnish star Toni Rajala has been getting heaps of praise back in his homeland with some even referring to him as the ‘Finnish Sidney Crosby.’ Similarly, Slovakia has a fast riser in Richard Panik, who frequently plays against older competition.
But that got me thinking: Will the aforementioned players become the next legends of the game someday? Could they even become the greatest players ever from their respective countries? It may sound outlandish, but every superstar starts somewhere.
We have already seen the best Canadian player of all-time. Whether you believe that man is Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr, both accomplished astonishing feats that will never be duplicated. And, unfortunately for young Panik, we have likely seen the best Slovak of all-time in Peter Stastny. The Czechs are sewn up right now as well: Dominik Hasek or Jaromir Jagr. Maybe you even give Stan Mikita some love (he was born there, even if he didn’t play hockey until he got to Canada).
So what about the other nations?
Russia: We’re pretty much sticking to the NHL here, so let’s just establish that up front. Pavel Bure? Sergei Fedorov? Vladimir Konstantinov? I think we’re watching the best right now: Alex Ovechkin. He’s already amassing a good deal of hardware and his Caps squad is on the rise. We’ll be seeing him consistently in the post-season from now on and his combination of offensive wizardry and reckless physical abandonment makes him one of a kind.
Sweden: Nicklas Lidstrom is the current titleholder. You can toss in some votes for Borje Salming, but at The Hockey News we’ve already crowned Lidstrom the best European ever and the arguments that he is the second-best defenseman ever get stronger every year. But there is a competitor rising in the near future. Behemoth defenseman Victor Hedman hasn’t even been drafted yet, but big things are expected. And just to give you a taste of things to come, Steven Stamkos once told me Hedman plays like Lidstrom – except one of them is 6-foot-5 and 220 pounds.
Finland: Even if Rajala is the Finnish Crosby, he’ll still have stiff competition from his Suomi brothers. Jari Kurri is seen as the gold standard of Finns, but where does Teemu Selanne fit into the picture now that he has a Stanley Cup?
USA: Here’s the most intriguing one, because it’s wide open. Evoking the Brett Hull rule (born in Canada, doesn’t count), who do you go with? Brian Leetch, Mike Modano and Pat LaFontaine are all good candidates, but I feel with the development of the game in America in recent years, we haven’t found the golden boy yet. Ironically, Phil Kessel was supposed to be the ‘American Crosby,’ but obviously he’ll settle for being a very good NHLer. Does Erik Johnson have the chops in St. Louis? Patrick Kane in Chicago? Elite youngsters such as Jeremy Morin and Jordan Schroeder are coming up over the horizon; maybe it’s one of them.
Germany and Switzerland: Clearly we haven’t seen the best yet, but these countries are putting together solid national programs (as is Denmark), so the elite talent will begin to get better as time goes on. For the foreseeable future, Thomas Vanek (Austria) and Anze Kopitar (Slovenia) have their countries wrapped up.
Ryan Kennedy is a writer and copy editor for The Hockey News magazine, the co-author of the book Hockey's Young Guns and a regular contributor to THN.com. His blog appears Thursdays, his column - The Straight Edge - every second Friday, and his feature, The Hot List appears Tuesdays.
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Braden (Posted 2008-08-18 14:38:29)
Isn't Kipper from Finland?
Don Gargaro (Posted 2008-08-17 12:17:05)
Russians- Federov, Ovechkin, Bure, Datsyuk, Konstantinov, Larionov
Swedes - Lidstom, Forsberg, Zetterberg, Salming, Sundin
Canada- Lemieux ,Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Sawchuck, Dryden, Richard
Czech and Slovakian - Jagr, Hasek, Hossa, Kiprosoff
USA - Jury still out but would include: Modano and Chelios
Paul (Posted 2008-08-11 01:19:08)
the better question is how are none of the KLM members and tretiak not part of the Russian debate? although, i do agree that when all is said and done ovechkin probably will be the best russian, and possibly top ten period.
lidstrom is a good swede pick, but forsberg deserves mention. sick of his antics nowadays, but when healthy he is as good as anybody.
U.S. is tough because no American has ever been able to string together a truly great stretch, it is more a season here a season there. but given his longevity, chelios could be the guy. lafontaine is justifiable, too.
Finland, I would give to Kurri so far, but Kipper would be worthy if he keeps his play up for a few more years.
thedeke (Posted 2008-08-10 01:23:22)
Ben Robin: Gretzky did play the PK. In fact, he was one of the first stars to do it, and he and Kurri got tons of points on the PK. Check the stats before speaking. One stat we don't have from Gretzky's heyday is puck control time, which would show how much (or how little) Gretzky controlled the game, but you can't argue that on facts because we don't have any. And I cannot argue with Bowman about Lemeiux, but the arguement isn't who was the most talented - it is who had the best career. And Lemieux only won cups when he had unbelievable talent around him too - Gretzky got closer ('93) then Lemeiux ever did with less than a completely dominating team. And Lemeiux didn't start dominating like he could until he learned from Gretzky how to play like a professional ('87 Canada Cup). But as a Lemeiux fan, you probably already knew that.
Whateva (Posted 2008-08-09 15:20:22)
Not sure how this article can be taken seriously.....how you can talk about great Russian players and not include Slava Fetisov? And how can anyone claim that we have seen the best Slovak ever? Stastny was a great player but it is ridiculous to think that he is the best Slovak there will ever be. About the only thing I agree with is that we have seen the best Canadian, no argument on that one. (yes, I mean 99).
Ben Robin (Posted 2008-08-08 22:00:54)
ONE MORE STATEMENT FOR SNOWMAN (snowman...truly, don't you have a first name worth using like anyone else?): to say that Gretzky controlled the game like no one else, then how come his stats mainly reflect the offensive side of his game, like Ovechkin? How come we never heard of Gretzky on the ice for a PK like Lemieux was? And if he was as dominant as you tend to explain, then how come he was unable to bring his team to the Holy Grail (read Stanley Cup) once he left Edmonton? Once again, it tells a lot about the surrounding cast he had in Edmonton, an ALL-of-FAME cast!!! Man, I look forward to your next response (with facts, hopefully!).
Fredrik Vilborg (Posted 2008-08-08 19:17:14)
Kronner the Barbarian, give me one player who has been better than Mats Sundin on the international scene during the last 15 years. He's been a god and saying else is heresy.
Ben Robin (Posted 2008-08-08 17:14:38)
HEY, SNOWMAN!!! (WHAT KIND OF NAME IS THAT ANYWAY!!!) You're absolutely right when you wrote there was no Dave Semenko in LA to protect Gretzky, but I must believe that you never heard or saw MARTY McSORLEY play in LA to fully comprehend what was his role as a member of that roster! It's nothing personal against Gretzky, but when you have read many articles on the topic and had the opportunity to speak with SEVERAL former coaches and GMs who firmly believe that Lemieux was a better talent to play hockey at BOTH ends of the ice surface, I CAN FULLY COMPREHEND THE STATEMENT OF SCOTTIE BOWMAN ON THAT SUBJECT. PERIOD.
Ben Robin (Posted 2008-08-08 17:13:06)
HEY, SNOWMAN!!! (WHAT KIND OF NAME IS THAT ANYWAY!!!) You're absolutely right when you wrote there was no Dave Semenko in LA to protect Gretzky, but I must believe that you never heard or saw MARTY McSORLEY play in LA to fully comprehend what was his role as a member of that roster! It's nothing personal against Gretzky, but when you have read many articles on the topic and had the opportunity to speak with SEVERAL former coaches and GMs who firmly believe that Lemieux was a better talent to play hockey at BOTH ends of the ice surface, I CAN FULLY COMPREHEND THE STATEMENT OF SCOTTIE BOWMAN ON THAT SUBJECT.
Braden (Posted 2008-08-08 16:41:34)
snowman, I was very careful not to say that Lidstrom is MORE TALENTED than Forsberg. There is no denying Forsberg has talent (but I am still not a fan of his). I just think Lidstrom has had the more successful and better career. Also his talents are a little different than Forsbergs but don't always get noticed (i.e. positioning and smarts). These talents of his could possibly be considered some of the best of all time whereas Forsbergs talents were more obvious to spot but do not necessarily rank him as high as say Gretzky, Howe and other all time greats.
eldrick (Posted 2008-08-08 16:29:38)
A Defensive pairing of B.Orr/S.Stevens would be the Hall of Fame greatest All-Time D Duo no matter what country. You Bourque/Lidstromers go explain to ANN how great your "softy duo" ranks, she'd get it.
Sanford Long (Posted 2008-08-08 16:28:21)
Hey man great article but you SKIPPED the entire country of Denmark which is clearly a fast rising hockey power! Did you follow their progress at the world championships? Though he is not under 21 have you watched their young goalie Patrick Galbraith who held the Russian POWER House team this year to a 4-1 loss for DK? Not bad considering! Galbraith played some minor hockey in Canada, his dad was a former Canadian junior hockey talent as a goalie as well -Clarkson U.
Anyway great article but don't forget the Danes!!
Matt Henderson (Posted 2008-08-08 16:26:03)
The most complete player ever was, Gordie Howe.
Stones (Posted 2008-08-08 16:23:12)
I don't understand how people can say Forsberg over Lidstrom. You say Forsberg dominated games in his prime but Lidstrom has been doing that for 15 years, he's just not flashy because he dominates defensively. He's been called the smartest player since Gretzky, the second best defenseman of all time, and in addition to all his trophies, became the first Euro to win the Conn Smythe, the first Euro to captain a team that has won the Stanely Cup, and is the all time leader of all Europeans in playoff games played. He's the only player other than Bobby Orr to win the Norris and Conn Smythe in the same year and has missed the least amount of games of anyone to play over 1000 career games.
Yzerman once said they could lose anyone on the team, including himself, except Nick Lidstrom. That speaks for itself. Lidstrom, IMO and THN's opinion is above Jagr, and Jagr is above Forsberg.
Derek Kannapin (Posted 2008-08-08 16:14:38)
For Team USA (I Love Leetch) by it's Chelios
For Team Russia hands down Pavel Bure
snowman (Posted 2008-08-08 16:14:16)
Braden, nice post in reference to Ann.
I don't necessarily agree with Lidstrom being more talented than Forsberg but that's my opinion...
Braden (Posted 2008-08-08 15:51:55)
Kudos to Jon about Ann. Took the words right out of my mouth. Ann, good job on labelling hockey players as apathetic morons. Have u met any of them? And what have u done lately that puts you so much higher on the evolutionary pedestal than these men? This is a hockey site so, naturally, articles like this are going to arise. Duh. I do agree that athletes make too much money but it is not necessarily their fault. If you are this concerned about society and economic issues, maybe you should be spending less time writing useless posts on sites that you obviously do not understand or appreciate. You are not helping your own cause. I know for a fact that some athletes have done more great things for the world then some politicians. Now, in regards to the blog, Lemieux should have been mentioned as he is arguably the most SKILLED hockey player ever. Orr is right up there with Lemieux (anyone read Ken Dryden's "The Game"? Fantastic book. Dryden claims that he doubts we will ever see a player that has made as big of an impact on the game as Orr. Or as talented) Gretzky is obvious choice. And how can anyone say that Forsberg is better than Lidstrom? Lidstrom is the better swede without a doubt. He is a consistent offensive threat and has phenomenal positioning which eliminates the need for him to play as physical as Forsberg (who obviously can't handle the rigors of the NHL). Lidstrom has had the better career and one of the most talented PLAYERS (not just defensemen) to ever play the game.
ann- you are a waste of time (Posted 2008-08-08 14:44:32)
JON, THANKYOU FOR YOUR WISDOM REGARDING ANN'S BLOG POST. WHY, ANN, WERE YOU ON THIS WEBSITE?? YOU ARE A JOKE.
Brian Kemp (Posted 2008-08-08 14:44:14)
Grant44, Ovechkin is not a one trick pony. Malkin is a great talent, but the Pens would be better with Ovechkin.
T. Stasel (Posted 2008-08-08 14:30:12)
Stan Mikita was Slovak not Czech. And Peter Stastny is and probably will be for awhile the all-time greatest Slovak. Bondra might be popular but he doesn't hold a candle to what Peter did on or off the ice in his career and for his country. Remember, who carried the flag in the first olympics since the re-birth of Slovakia as a nation? Peter Stastny.
Matt (Posted 2008-08-08 14:13:08)
I'm partial to Jersey, but 3 solid choices from Canada: Martin Brodeur (3 cups), Scott Stevens (3 cups), Scott Neidermayer (4 cups)
Picard (Posted 2008-08-08 13:39:10)
Tough to argue these choices, really. Sure, there are some arguments to do with fan preferences, but the list is essentially right, though I think its too early to anoint Ovie at this point, even if the potential is clearly there. No mention for Mogilny, by the way? Anyways, I say that the Hockey News, in its efforts to fill column space in the summer, should now name the best players to ever play for each team. You can save the last few rounds of expansion teams, we know Nash is the best CBJ have ever had, Kovie in Atl, etc., but how about Toronto? Sittler or Sundin? or Montreal - Richard or Beliveau (or Lafleur)? Calgary? Rangers? If this hasn't been done yet, I just handed you guys next week's article!
Henrik (Posted 2008-08-08 12:24:44)
Top three best Swedes ever: 1. Lidstrom 2. Forsberg 3. Sundin. Borje Salming is probably fourth.
Sal J. Barry (Posted 2008-08-08 11:21:51)
What about Poland? Mariusz Czerkawski and Peter Sidorkiewicz.
Brian Kemp (Posted 2008-08-08 11:08:38)
snowman, I agree, Forsberg was the most talented Swede, much like Lemieux was the most talented Canadian. However, just like Lemieux, someone else was better, longer, Gretzky for Canada (also Orr and Howe, if you ask me), Lidstrom for Sweden. Lidstrom is being called possibly the second best defenseman of all time, at worst fourth all time. No one is calling Forseberg the fourth best center of all time. He was absolutely fantastic in his prime, but his prime lasted about 4 years, and they weren't all in a row. Lidstrom isn't done winning awards, Forsberg is. He might not know it yet, but he's done.
DE Johannes (Posted 2008-08-08 10:34:59)
USA......Mike Modano! Mike has all the records.........He has made every American hockey fan proud. Even though you all hate to give an American born player, especially one from the Western Conference, one bit of credit....................come on, now! Mike is the best!!
Jon (Posted 2008-08-08 10:21:55)
Ann we're talking hockey here not physics. Yeah great, Einstein developed the theory of relativity, but how good was his slapshot? Marconi got credit for the radio, but who cares; he was a puck hog. He'd never pass always wanted to shoot. Kepler's laws of planetary motion are interesting, but come one we're talking planetary motion! His defense was terrible! Total cherry picker. Seriously who cares about planetary motion if you don't understand the importance of keeping the third man high in a 1-1-3 fore-checking system!
I don't know if they haven't read any books lately, because unlike you; I don't make ridiculous judgments about people whom I've never met. Luckily for all of us there are 'serious' people like you out there doing all the heavy thinking. Now if you'll excuse me I'll take my copy of E.M. Bradford's 'Original Intentions' under my bed as I cower in fear with my buddy Al Gore waiting for the icebergs to melt.
One more thing: if you want to comment on your wacky left agenda, do it on one of your tree hugging websites, this web site in case you haven't noticed is a hockey web site. We talk about hockey here.
Kronner the Barbarian (Posted 2008-08-08 10:19:23)
Sulko, what would make you think that Sundin is the best Swede ever? You are insane. I love Sundin and all, but Lidstrom is head and shoulders above him. How can a guy who throughout his career has been maybe a top-10 center be better than arguably the second best defensemen in the history of the game. Give your head a shake. Forsberg was better than Sundin as well. Maybe Alfredsson too.
James Finney (Posted 2008-08-08 10:10:52)
One thing I don't get is why are so many of you looking at how long their careers were. Bobby Orr did not play long - only 657 games - but it is almost unanimous that he was the absolute best defenseman ever - granted he had 8 Norris Trophies in 12 seasons. I agree its too early to tell for sure with Ovie, though if he keeps it up he will be considered the best Russian ever. Ovie is not a one-trick pony, lets see: Malkin - +16, Ovie - +28 (on a team with a worse record). Granted, stats do not tell exactly how defensive a player is. Ovie isn't on the PK because the Caps have a lot of great penalty killers: Steckel, Gordon, Laich, Federov, Kozlov, Laing, etc. And Crack is right, Centers are expected to play tighter D than wingers - Wingers cover the point and half-boards which Ovie does well.
sulko (Posted 2008-08-08 10:02:56)
Saying ovechcan can not play-d is crazy, how can he when always has the puck and i agree he is the best russian. Makita is slovak but at a young age was put in a suitcase by his uncle and brought to canada , so peter the great is the best slovak and double j the best czech . sundin is swedens and kurri fins. There never has been a great american that has not been trained in canada, but if you have to pick one it would be Broten the pioneer.
Swedish Dangler (Posted 2008-08-08 10:01:31)
Denmark doesn't really have a good program.
But Frolunda Indians kind of have a Denmark-program going. And it's going good.
Crack (Posted 2008-08-08 09:37:45)
Grant44 - Apparently you don't watch the Caps play or even that much hockey. Ovey is very good at defense and neither of them will ever win a Selke. Maklin is a center, Ovey is a wing. Centers play lower in the zone and in general wings need to cover the points. Ovey is usually at the top of the circles where he is suppose to be covering the d-man.
Tyler (Posted 2008-08-08 09:32:47)
I agree.
Pat (Posted 2008-08-08 09:03:12)
Get a life Ann and take an english class if you are so serious about things.
Grant44 (Posted 2008-08-08 08:36:24)
Kennedy - you must be an anti-Penguin guy: no mention of Lemieux? Plus, I have 5 words for you regarding Malkin (also no mention): Both-Ends-of-the-ice. Ovy's great but he's a one-trick pony.
brian (Posted 2008-08-08 08:27:24)
i guess i skipped that part in the blog about gretz, orr and canada haha.
brian (Posted 2008-08-08 08:25:08)
lemieux is canadian. speaking of.... wheres the canadian category? maybe that one is just a given.
Duecey (Posted 2008-08-08 07:28:27)
How did Peter Forsberg not get a nomination, or even Mario Lemieux?
Milan (Posted 2008-08-08 07:20:13)
first of all, stan mikita might have been born in czechoslovakia, but he`s slovak not czech, same as most of the today`s slovak nhlers(born in czechoslovakia, but slovak), ask them if you don`t believe me.
it`s definitely hard to say one player from canada with all of talents they raised, three names definitely-gretzky, lemieux, orr(you choose the order)with tons of hnorable mentions, russia-if counting just nhlers, then fedorov, if not then tretjak. Finland-kurri, no doubt. Czech. rep-Jagr, just for the haircut. USA-my favourite us player was pat lafontaine, but the best-probably leetch or modano. Sweden-i would also go for forsberg, lidstrom is an exeptional player, but forsberg was dominating player whenever healthy. Slovakia-if you would ask slovaks about best slovak player, it`s very likely that the other peter(Bondra) would be the name they say. although stastny was top 5 player of his era, slovaks just love Bondra.
Bai Jiansi (Posted 2008-08-08 06:58:51)
Fredrick- Right on!
Fredrik Vilborg again (Posted 2008-08-08 06:21:18)
Forgot about Orr so make that 40 years, but that only makes my point stronger: Imagine what the coming 40 years will bring.
Fredrik Vilborg (Posted 2008-08-08 06:18:19)
I dont understand why you say that Gretzky, Orr, Stastny, Jagr and Hasek will never be bestered, that's a rediculous claim. These players all played within a span of just over 30 years, what in the world say that we wont see players like them in the forthcoming 30 years? It sounds to me that you take the high-scoring in the eighties way to serious.
Simon Jones (Posted 2008-08-08 06:15:58)
Ann - You're right about it being a game but isn't providing enjoyment to millions of people doing something worthwhile. Some of these players also give a lot of time and some of their money to charities. There aren't many of us who solve world problems.
Ann Ereline (Posted 2008-08-08 05:25:30)
This is so ridiculous; I can't believe you're even doing this. It's a game. Children play it. Anyone can learn it, and a few exceptional skaters can master it. But can Peter Forsberg, aka Peter the Great, do nuclear physics? I think not. Not even close. And Wayne Gretsky, algebra? Maybe not. It's a game!!!! OK, I grant you, the Gretzkys and Forsbergs have some sort of spatial sense (that would be geometry) of things, but have any of them read a book lately? Thought about global warming? Thought about anything that actually matters, lately? Done anything -- with their millions -- that matter? Probably not. They skate. PERIIOD.
snowman (Posted 2008-08-08 04:43:50)
Ben Robin, if you knew anything about hockey and actually watched Gretzky play you would see that he was the Greatest "hands down", he controlled the game whenever he had the puck even when he played for LA and made it to the finals with Lucky Luc at his side, there was no Messier or Semenko as you claim assisting him. He dominated the game with points and controlled the play better than anyone.
Simon Jones (Posted 2008-08-08 03:50:03)
Ben Robin - Agree with the Gordie comment before Stevie Y but just wanted to add his name as Mr Hockey had already been mentioned in other postings.
Ben Robin (Posted 2008-08-08 03:33:13)
For Canada, honorable mention must go to GORDIE HOWE before Stevie Y. It's nothing personal against Stevie Y, but when you take a closer look at the career of Gordie Howe and the kind of player he was, you finally better understand why he is the 3rd best player in NHL history (stats wise, behind Gretzky and Messier).
Bai Jiansi (Posted 2008-08-08 02:58:58)
Best from Québec: F Mario Lemieux; D Raymond Bourque; G Patrick Roy.
Simon Jones (Posted 2008-08-08 02:56:38)
Steve Ross - your comment reminded me of a time I watched Team GB play against Australia in Bracknell (England) many years ago in a Group D game.
Snowman - Did you ever see Federov play? He was a great two way player.
For Canada - honourable mention must go to Stevie Yzerman given the team he had around him when he first started, perhaps the best two way forward ever.
eldrick (Posted 2008-08-08 02:19:49)
No mention of the Pole who put Hockey on the map in his country- the Polish Hammer-Kryzstozf Oliwa (spelling?). His homeland would vote him no. 1 after his Olympics in '92 I believe? Hopefully the judge in front of him is a Polish Hockey buff cuz he is looking at jail time after high sticking and crosschecking his girlfriend senseless last year (actually assaulted her with a hockey stick)....Canada- coin toss, Gordie Howe/B.Orr with Honorable Mention to the best all around player of the 80's- B. Trottier ....USA- probably Chelios with Honorable Mention to the player Adam Graves said was the toughest player to check against because of his trio of Speed-Power&Strength, Billy Guerin....Sweden- no question,Forsberg. I'll take the guys who can physically dictate a game along with skill.
Daniel J McNamara (Posted 2008-08-08 02:01:21)
Dear Mr. Kennedy:
What about Chelio's for USA consideration?
Regards,
Daniel McNamara
Ben Robin (Posted 2008-08-08 01:50:21)
Most dominant CANADIAN player? MARIO LEMIEUX, hands down!!! Without a "Dave Semenko" for most of his career, he dealt with the abuse. For the most part of his career, he did not have the chance to play with some Mark Messier, Jari Kurri, Paul Coffey, Luc Robitaille, etc, etc, etc. Yes, came into the portrait some Jaromir Jagr, Ron Francis, Paul Coffey, Larry Murphy and Alexei Kovalev, but that was still later in his career and still, without a "Ted Lindsay" or "Dave Semenko". Even the greatest coach in NHL history, Scottie Bowman, said it: "By far, Lemieux is the greatest talent I ever had the opportunity to coach and the best player ever to play the game at both ends of the ice". Enough said!!!!!
Best IRISH player: Owen Nolan
Best GERMAN player: Dany Heatley
Best AFRICAN player: Olaf Kolzig
Best KOREAN player: Jim Paek
H. Lundqvist (Posted 2008-08-08 01:30:37)
Best swedish born player of all-time circa 2020: Henrik Lundqvist.
Alexander K. (Posted 2008-08-08 01:14:20)
If we're just going with the Russians who played in the NHL, and Pavel Bure is included...where is Mogilny? However the best Russian ever to play the game is without a doubt, Vladislav Tretiak.
Kevin Smith (Posted 2008-08-08 00:36:57)
Thing is, you can't count the people born in, say, South Africa, but grew up in Canada (and yes, Kolzig grew up in Canada, not Germany). So Byron Dafoe, who played Junior A in BC, probably doesn't count. Nor can Tommy Dunderdale, who was born in Australia, grew up in Canada, and won the cup with Portland in 1916 (hey, he's in the HHOF!). But you could use...Ruslan Salei (Belarus - Andrei Kostitsyn will be better, but Ruslan's had a better career), Poul Popiel was "born and raised in his early years in Denmark", but played in the OHA at 17. No idea when he came over, so it could be at 9, or 17...maybe Frans Nielsen instead? Espen Knutsen for Norway, Mariusz Czerkawski for Poland (hey Timmok, who's Oleg?) though Peter Sidorkiewicz has a great name. Finally, Ukraine with Zhitnik or Khristich. ----------
If you don't mind people raised elsewhere, Nelson Debenedet (Italy), Graeme Townshend (Jamaica), Ed Hatoum (Lebanon) are examples. Of course, there's also Britain...Paul Messier was born in England...wonder what would have happened if the family stayed there. Would Mark have played soccer?
Ozzy (Posted 2008-08-07 23:56:42)
The best Slovakian player is Zdeno Chara or Marian Gaborik. The best Russian player is Evgeni Malkin.
The Blizz (Posted 2008-08-07 23:49:13)
It seems that everyone has their own concept of what "best" is. Gretzky is undoubtedly the most accomplished Canadian player, just as M. Lemieux is undoubtedly the most talented Canadian player ever. Gretzky was the best at raising the level of his teammates. Lemieux was and remains the most dominating force on skates -- I've never seen anyone who could consistently just take over a game and win games on skill 5x that of anyone around. It's great watching Ovechkin and Crosby and Zetterberg, etc., but when the NHL channel runs 30 or 60 minutes of Mario Lemieux highlights... it's like the choice between watching today's NBA stars or watching Michael Jordan highlights.
Troy (Posted 2008-08-07 22:31:43)
JW...Kurri was probably the BEST defensive forward on the Oilers. He may have been the best defensive winger in the league (at the time, as per Gtretz's comments) but never got any credit. Isn't the best defense a good offense? Kurri was like Hull and could score from anywhere. The Oil went on to win another cup after Gretz where Kurri was key @ both ends of the ice.
Kaspar (Posted 2008-08-07 22:31:19)
I love it! An article that settles nothing!
Greg (Posted 2008-08-07 22:08:36)
England: Byron Dafoe.
Glen Miller (Posted 2008-08-07 22:02:17)
Hate to break this to you but Kolzig is from South Africa originally. He easily becomes the greates South African player in NHL history. I guess that means Uwe and Marco get to battle it out for the 2nd best German born player after Dany Heatley. Now for some more names from the past; Claude Vilgrain from Haiti who played forward for the Devils in the late 80's, early 90's. Wasn't Jim Paek from South Korea before moving to Canada? I believe Steve Thomas was actually born in England.
JW Cole (Posted 2008-08-07 21:31:59)
Forsberg was arguably the best player in the world for a few years. Lidstrom was the best defenseman during that time. Lidstroms career and dominance has been longer but Forsberg gets the top swedish player for my money. Selanne gets the top fin award as well. As good as Kurri was he had Gretzky and several other superstars helping his stats. The finnish flash is one of the most gifted scorers ever to lace up skates, and he played most of his career in the dead puck era. Think of Bossy and Hull with speed when you think of Selanne.
Keith P. (Posted 2008-08-07 20:59:06)
VanFan, I doubt he was even an all-star in 2008 when they demoted him to the AHL.
VanFan (Posted 2008-08-07 20:57:02)
Best American to ever lace them up? Rory Fitzpatrick. The guy was almost a first team all-star in 2007.
Jim Reinecke (Posted 2008-08-07 20:54:35)
Trust me, Blaine. . .it IS just you.
Steve Cowen (Posted 2008-08-07 20:52:01)
There were just to many names left off of the list of Canadians. Gretzky, is without a doubt the best of all time, but how about some honorable mention of the other Canadiens that should be on that list, Patrick Roy , Ken Dryden , Guy Lafleuer...
red wing (Posted 2008-08-07 20:44:56)
Lidstom. Six Norris trophies, four Stanley Cups. What else is there to say? Best Swede ever without a doubt.
Flyer guy 16 (Posted 2008-08-07 19:24:32)
Blaine-you are a moron.
Alex in AZ (Posted 2008-08-07 19:21:09)
Aki Berg retired with a -12. Best Canadian: Gretzki. Best American: Modano holds the points and goals records among US-born players. Best Russian that played in the NHL: Bure. Best Swede: based on talent alone, Forsberg, but based on talent and durability, Lidstrom. Best Finnish player: Kurri.
chris (Posted 2008-08-07 19:12:42)
they why are you readin the website blaine? get a life man
Big P (Posted 2008-08-07 19:11:24)
Austria...VANEK!
Paul Mabbott (Posted 2008-08-07 18:27:44)
Blaine, if you you don't like THN, then wtf are you bothering to read here and post useless comments like that.
blaine (Posted 2008-08-07 17:48:21)
btw,
is it just me or do you have to be borderline retarded to subscribe to, and write in, the hockey news?
as it turns out, its not me at all; THN really does suck that bad (no wonder i canceled my subscription years ago)
Logan (Posted 2008-08-07 17:00:57)
lol Alaska is part of the United States!
gragox (Posted 2008-08-07 17:00:22)
I'd rather say Arturs Irbe for Latvia.
Helmuts Balderis, which played mostly played for Dinamo Riga and CSKA Moscow, was MVP of two Soviet hockey league seasons. After Soviet Union broke he was drafted by North Stars (by the time he was ~40, so he became the oldest player ever drafted in NHL). Later he played even few games for North Stars.
Timmok (Posted 2008-08-07 16:51:22)
Remember Sandis Ozolinsh from Latvia? Oleg Czerkawski from Poland? Which other country should I mention?... Scott Gomez from Alaska? :)
snowman (Posted 2008-08-07 16:50:00)
Brian, Forsberg is still the most talented Swede. when coming back from injuries, Lidstrom is the best Swede defenseman but not as "talented" as Forsberg. Federov...where is he? Speaking of having 3 or 4 years of success I think you were refering to Federov not Forsberg. I like Federov better than Ovechkin but Bure was amazing with the puck.
aki berg (Posted 2008-08-07 16:47:42)
aki berg is the best finnish player........ no really... he retired with a +5.. now thats amazing
Timmok (Posted 2008-08-07 16:44:31)
Well, looks like anyone is cheering for their (fake?) country, so I have to say that Cristobal Huet might France's best player playing in the NHL, and playing for Montreal succeeded to bring some interest about hockey over here (well, there's hardly any awareness about hockey in France anyways). In the early 1990's, we also had Philippe Bozon, who could make it to the St Louis Blues, but I guess he was definitely not running the power play with the local stars of the time.
I hope other readers from other hockey "backwater" countries will join me in this quest for showing how international the NHL can be if it likes.
Still, for Russia, my bet for the best local player will definitely be without a single doubt Pavel Bure. Seeing so many highlights from the guy, and most importantly seeing all he could do with his fragile knees just shows how great he as...
Seb (Posted 2008-08-07 16:41:28)
As far as "asian" players a concerned...there are so few originating directly from asia that I would even consider Devin Setoguchi as "asian" in this case...
Brian Kemp (Posted 2008-08-07 16:40:39)
On the Lidstrom v. Forsberg debate, Forsberg might have had a higher peak, but Lidstrom has been the best defenseman in the world for the last decade, and was considered the best player in the world for a season or so. (I think it's a crime that he doesn't get Hart trophy consideration every year. Not win it, but at least a mention.) Forsberg was really only at his peak for 3, maybe 4 seasons. Other than that, he was always hurt. I'd give it to Lidstrom without hemming and hawing too much, but that's just me. Snowman, Federov won a Hart trophy the same year he won the Selke. He put up 120 points that year. His play didn't suffer because he was playing defense, unless you mean playing as a defenseman, in which case, no, you're still wrong, he was playing defenseman because he was struggling, not the other way around. Either way, at this point, he's still the best Russian in the NHL. Bure was more dynamic, but he was hurt a lot, and was one dimensional, even if his one dimension was absolutely fantastic.
Seb (Posted 2008-08-07 16:38:27)
Sorry Mr Marco Sturm...Olaf Kolzig made a much bigger impact on the NHL than you have! So Kolzig is the best German player!
Alexei Ponikadropsky (Posted 2008-08-07 16:32:25)
I am the best european. Period.
http://www.wiinjamod.com
Kevin Rigot (Posted 2008-08-07 16:17:30)
uh, are we forgetting someone for sweden?
hmm, oh ya, Peter Forsberg, I think his name is,
you know, the one on the postage stamp
i'm not saying Lidstrom doesn't deserve it, but you gotta at least mention Peter Forsberg
Flyer guy 16 (Posted 2008-08-07 16:01:26)
Canada-Gretzky,U.S.A.-Roenick,maybe Housley ,Sweden-Lidstrom,Finland-Kurri,Russia-Bure. Czech,Slovakia-Hasek,maybe Stastny. The rest? Don't care.
snowman (Posted 2008-08-07 15:36:59)
Best proven Canadian, Gretzky without a doubt, his career is not "what if" scenarios; he delivered results even though he played with a "bum" back as well. Best Russian was Pavel Bure, I recall Federov being a superstar until they asked him to play defense as well, Ovechkin plays no defense on the Washington "team", someday he will be asked to back check and quit cherry picking. Best Swede is Forsberg, he has amazing talent but is too small to play the aggressive style that has made him the best Swede, Lidstrom is second.
Alex Bonpland (Posted 2008-08-07 15:20:06)
best russian ever: v. tretiak. first russian to be inducted into the hall of fame and considered as the best goalie of all time. he wasn't allowed to play overseas cause of the iron curtain. best german ever: erich kuehnhackl. far better than the current german nhl players (hecht,sturm) koelzig just has a german passport but can't speak german and wasn't raised in germany. only his ancestry is german. not only the nhl is counting in my opinion. nowadays yes but in the last century only a few europians have played overseas
Jim Reinecke (Posted 2008-08-07 15:07:06)
Best United States player? Modano would be a good pick, but why so little support for Joey Mullen? Over 500 goals isn't bad for a guy who didn't play the game until he was 14 and was never drafted. Oh, and Ed Kea from the Netherlands and Willi Plett from Paraguay. (I don't want anyone to fell left out!) Seriously, though, for the Chelios Marching and Chowder Society. . .if you're touting Chris as top US skater, and basing it on longevity, I'll buy it. But if longevity is one of your yardsticks for overall supremacy, then the Bobby Orr faction must yield their claim that he's Number One from Canada or even Number One ever. Gordie Howe would get my vote as top Canadian and as the greatest of all time (tougher than Gretzky, more durable than Orr).
Craig (Posted 2008-08-07 14:45:32)
This list is flawed, if Ovechkin has surpassed Federov, Tikanov, or Bure; or if Gretzky superceded Orr (which I believe he did) then to state so matter of factly that they are the greatest all time from their respective countries is foolish at best. Who is to say that an even better player isn't being born right now in some tiny corner of Omsk who will surpass Ovechkin, or that some 4 year old in Ornskoldvik isn't fitting his first skates readying himself for his first lessons next month and won't eventually blend the sharp shooting quick release of Naslund, with the consistancy and durability of Sundin and tenacity and physical edge of Forsberg. I think You can call these players the greatest so far, but not the greatest ever. Not unless we stop playing this great game.
Steve Ross (Posted 2008-08-07 14:37:05)
How come Australia hasen't developed any good hockey players? ...I guess because it doesn't snow there. I trying to develop hockey into a popular sport in Australia would be as dumb as trying to develop it in Mexico or Phoenix or Florida. ....Oh wait a minute! Guess you might as well expand into Australia when you expand the NHL into Europe Bettman!
Blake (Posted 2008-08-07 14:30:59)
For US, you can't forget Phil Housley either...He had a fantastic career starting in High School, going through pros and international play and now in his coaching career at Stillwater High.
Sweden (Posted 2008-08-07 14:26:21)
Sundin is second on the Swedish least. Lidstrom is arguably the second best defenseman ever so he deserves first no doubt. In terms of forward, Sundin deserves that second he has been a class act and loyal to Sweden.
Jack Legg (Posted 2008-08-07 14:24:53)
I think Sundin deserves more credit. Longest serving European captain of an NHL franchise in league history. First Swedish player to reach the 500 goal milestone. Most career points, goals and assists by a Swedish hockey player. Only Swedish player to reach 1000 points or more. Ranked 30th all time in NHL career points and currently holds the NHL record for most overtime goals scored (clutch player). Durability and consistency matter, Sundin can play the game better now than Forsberg despite being older. I agree maybe not the flashiest Swede to ever play, but I think he's getting short changed, he deserves to be at least mentioned as one of the best.
Chris (Posted 2008-08-07 14:16:15)
Wheres the love for JR for the greatest player from the states?
I think he deserves way more credit!
John Smith (Posted 2008-08-07 14:07:59)
If you ask the swedish people they will say forsberg for sure. Lidstrom never really got the recognition in sweden but after the 3-2 slapper in the olympic final in 2006 people opened up their eyes for lidstrom but he is still not as popular as forsberg. Forsberg should really be considered though. Problably top 10 - 15 of best players all time. Just look at his point per games. both regular and post season. MVP, Art ross, Calder, 2 olympics, 2 WC, 2 Stanley cups!
Andrew (Posted 2008-08-07 14:05:27)
Lithuania- Dainus Zubrus
Ned (Posted 2008-08-07 14:03:36)
Well if China is representin' I guess you gotta give props Japan for developing Yutaka Fukufuji. However, Larry Kwong was born in Canadian so I don't think he qualifys as "coming out of China."
Martin (Posted 2008-08-07 14:03:32)
Sundin has had great success with the Swedish national team, which have made him as popular and respected as Forsberg, but I think Foppa is considered the best ever by the random Swede. Just the fact that those horrible plastic slippers ("crocs" i belive they´re called) are called "the Foppa-slipper" in Sweden because Forsberg´s company is distributing them there, should point out his popularity. Sundin is probably in the top-5 swedish players ever though.
scotty87 (Posted 2008-08-07 13:58:35)
Oh yes and let us not forget the best player to ever come out of China, Mr Larry Kwong.
Bleedin' Green (Posted 2008-08-07 13:46:50)
Don't forget the hockey mecca that is Ireland! Owen Nolan is their best, no doubt!
Marco Sturm (Posted 2008-08-07 13:46:42)
Ahem....you "forgot" to write about me there Mr.Writer. I am the best German born player. So what if its by default? I am still the best!!!
scotty87 (Posted 2008-08-07 13:38:38)
For the Russians, Bure is the pick for sure....if it wasnt for that bum knee he would have amassed a disgusting amount of points. Two 60 goal seasons and one with 58 and one with 59. I saw him play in the old Pacific Coliseum when I was young and was absolutely electrifying. Im surprised you guys didnt throw Brodeur into the fold for the Canadians...Im certain he will eventually be known as the best goalie of all time.
Mike (Posted 2008-08-07 13:35:53)
Martin, it is my understanding from what I heard on the radio last year, because they were having this very conversation, is that the greatest Swede player in the eyes of the Swedish themselves is Mats Sundin. Which makes sense since hes the Captain of their national team. As confusing as that is to me, a North American who places such emphasis on the Stanley Cup and the NHL I find that hard to believe but apparently its true that in Sweden Sundin is the big deal.
seb (Posted 2008-08-07 13:34:00)
Canada: Gretzky...maybe Lemieux (considering his career was cut drastically short by injuries, he might have broken Gretzky's record? Who knows!)
Finland: to me its Teemu Selanne, think 76 goals as a rookie...
Sweden: Lidstrom or Forsberg, Lidstrom is probably the best defencemen since Bobby Orr and Forsberg arguably one of the most dominating player when healthy.
USA: Modano or Chelios.
Russia: Alex Ovechkin is GREAT but he's played 3 full seasons only. What if he crumbles or starts getting injured? With time he'll be considered the best from Russia. Right now its still Fedorov, the highest scoring Russian in NHL history, but my heart is with Pavel Bure,that guy could score 60 goals easily...without all those injuries, he would probably have 6 or 7 60 goals seasons under his belt.
Czechs: Jagr without a doubt...arguably the best euro player to have ever played in the NHL.
Slovak: Peter Stastny, no question.
Germany: Kolzig without a doubt! Technically...Dany Heatley was born in Germany too.
Kazakhstan: Nabokov...Calder trophy...shouldve won the Vezina this year not Brodeur.
Belarus: Too early to tell but the Andrei Kostitsyn is on his way!
Nik Antropov (Posted 2008-08-07 13:27:50)
Well steve, it is true that Nabokov was born in what is now my homeland of Kazakhstan, but that Soviet Goalie has since defected to the Russia. So I'd like to think that that makes me the best of my country, as I have Captained our Olympic team and Nabokov has never even played for us.
Henrik (Posted 2008-08-07 13:25:45)
Doesn´t Nabokov play for Russia?
steve (Posted 2008-08-07 13:15:42)
BelarusSucks, you're wrong about Kazakhstan. Antropov is not their best player. It's spelt E-V-G-E-N-I N-A-B-O-K-O-V.
Jeff (Posted 2008-08-07 12:58:33)
Kharlamov. Fetisov. Firsov. Maltsev. Vasiliev.
Come on this is silly, they had to play in the NHL?
Martin (Posted 2008-08-07 12:45:57)
If you would ask a Swede who´s Sweden´s best player of all time, he or she would likely say Peter Forsberg. Lidstrom can´t match the iconic status of Forsberg, who has been the symbol of Swedish hockey for more than a decade. However, Lidstrom is the best, but I would put Forsberg at second place instead of Salming. I dont think any Swede in the future will match the merits of Lidstrom: four Cups, one Olympic gold medal, one World Championship gold medal, six Norris Trophies and one Conn Smythe (and counting). Lidstrom and Forsberg are the Orr and Gretzky of Sweden.
tahi0009 (Posted 2008-08-07 12:36:59)
What about Phil Housley, I dont know how his name was not mentioned for the U.S.
Mike (Posted 2008-08-07 12:32:43)
What would Steven Stamkos know about playing against Nicklas Lidstrom? (If you said nothing, you'd be right!) After playing against him for the first time, Crosby said he really didn't realize how good Lidstrom actually was. Why don't you wait to quote Stamkos on Hedman till after Steven has actually played against Lidstrom - then maybe he'll actually have a clue.
mudshark (Posted 2008-08-07 12:31:53)
I'd throw Mr. Hockey in there with the Great One and Himself. Lemieux (Mario, not Claude) might be worth mentioning, too.
As far as the Swedes go, Lidstrom is a no-brainer.
Ovechkin is sure to give Sergei Fedorov a run for his money- Feds beats out Bure and Konstantinov on longevity alone (sorta like Lemieux falling in behind those other three above).
With longevity in mind, I think Chris Chelios is a strong candidate as far as the US is concerned. Leetch is obviously up there, but I don't see Lafontaine in the running- he didn't play long enough, and his career, great as it was, didn't match the hype surrounding his entry into the league.
Germany/Switzerland- who cares? Olaf Kolzig and Uwe Krupp does not a great hockey nation make.
Finland- toss-up between Kurri and Selanne, but I'd be inclined to give Kurri the nod, considering the astounding post-season success the guy had.
Czech- Jagr v. Hasek. Truly a battle for the ages.
Slovakia- Stasny, for sure. If Marian Hossa plays till he's forty, he has an outside shot...
Mark Wilder (Posted 2008-08-07 12:25:33)
Chelios deserves at least an Honorable Mention for the best player from the United States...
BelarusSucks (Posted 2008-08-07 12:25:17)
Antropov the greatest ever for Kazakhstan!
John (Posted 2008-08-07 12:19:08)
In general, I agree, except that I think Forsberg, had he had a healthy career, would have been Sweden's, and I was a little surprised that Lemieux's name didn't come up for Canada.
Ed Sanada (Posted 2008-08-07 12:19:00)
I'm sorry, Jari Kurri is by far and away the King of Finland. Five Stanley Cups. Teemu doesn't know the term "two-way player" nor will he ever.
HabsFan (Posted 2008-08-07 12:03:08)
The Kostitsyn's for Belarus?
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